送交者: Europeanese 于 2005-6-12, 17:16:36:
驻澳大使接受澳洲电视台采访 答外交官叛逃问题(视频)
文章来源: 人在澳洲 于 2005-06-11 03:57:05
驻澳大使接受澳洲电视台采访 答外交官叛逃问题(视频) 人在澳洲
中国驻澳洲大使接受澳洲电视台专题采访，答外交官叛逃有关问题
背景知识
中国驻悉尼领事馆政治参赞陈用林在5月26日叛逃，寻求澳洲政府庇护。叛逃后陈用林公开宣称有上千中国间谍在澳洲活动。悉尼领事馆声明说，陈用林现在为了能留在澳大利亚，编造了一切谎言。这些都是无稽之谈，不值一提。
傅莹女士，中国驻澳洲大使，北京外国语学院毕业
TONY JONES， 澳洲有名的政论节目Lateline主持人，以喜欢向政治家提问刁钻问题而闻名。
采访视频（开始一小段是关于澳洲向中国出口核原料的新闻，后面就是采访）
对话文稿
Defection attempt won't harm relations: ambassador
Reporter: Tony Jones
TONY JONES: To tonight's top story - the fugitive diplomat Chen Yonglin who is trying to defect to Australia. So far the Federal Government hasn't granted his wish and China is doing all it can to get the 37-year-old, his wife and daughter to return home after he fled his country's Sydney consulate almost two weeks ago. China's ambassador to Australia, Fu Ying, joined us in our Canberra studio tonight to discuss the stand-off.
TONY JONES: Ambassador Fu, thank you for joining us.
MADAME FU, CHINESE AMBASSADOR: Thank you. Good evening.
TONY JONES: Good evening. If Mr Chen is allowed to stay in Australia, if he is granted a protection visa to remain here, what will the reaction be of the Chinese Government?
MADAME FU: I think you've heard the Chinese reaction already, from the statement of Sydney Consul-General.
TONY JONES: Yes. What would your reaction be reflecting your government?
MADAME FU: We will react by then.
TONY JONES: Yes. What do you think your reaction would be if Mr Chen is allowed to stay in this country?
MADAME FU: I prefer not to answer the question in a hypothetical manner. That's not the way I would do things.
TONY JONES: Right. So you're not talking to the Australian Government at all about this matter?
MADAME FU: I was asked by the Australian Government about whether he will be - whether he will face persecution if he returns to China, as he said, and I said he won't.
TONY JONES: How can you guarantee something like that?
MADAME FU: I think there is no reason. I don't see there is any reason to persecute him, and China doesn't do it, and he has never been persecuted. Throughout his service in China, he has been doing well, he has been doing well in Sydney Consul-General, and he was promoted only last year to be the First Secretary. He's quite young, 37 years old, and he's already First Secretary. He's doing very well. I don't see why he was persecuted before, why he claims that he suffered some kind of pressure before, and why he would face persecution when he returned.
TONY JONES: Madame Fu, let me put it this way, if I can: does this incident have the potential to damage relations between Australia and China?
MADAME FU: Personally, I think our relations are strong enough to stand shock of this type. I don't think it has anything to do with our bilateral relations. It's a very individual case. A young chap, a young Chinese diplomat who didn't like his job and who wanted to stay in Australia. As I told the journalists today, there are better ways for him to do that. He could very well go back, as he is winding up his job, he could go back and resign from the Foreign Ministry if he so wish, and apply for immigration status in a foreign country.
TONY JONES: With respect, though, what you're saying indicates that if Australia allowed him to stay on a protection visa, that would not damage relations between our two countries.
MADAME FU: I don't want to judge what the Australian Government is going to do, but I think the way he behaved, the way he attacked China cannot harm China, just because he created those things, those stories. I think our relations are strong enough. As far as this case is concerned, I believe the Australian Government will make a judgment according, as the officials said, according to the merits of himself, of the case itself, and I think he will need to - there are rules, international rules and regulations governing the case, and he will need to provide the proof of what he claims.
TONY JONES: Are you asking the Australian Government to return Mr Chen to China?
MADAME FU: I'm not asking the Australian Government to do anything. I'm saying that Mr Chen is finishing - has finished his job. He was expected to go back to China.
TONY JONES: And you would like him to go back to China?
MADAME FU: Well, I wouldn't - I don't think what he's doing is what I would like to see happening, because he - he - he is trying so hard, to the extent that he would create stories against China in order to get sympathy from the Australian public, probably, or from the officials in the Australian Government in order to stay. And I feel sorry for that. I think there are better ways for him to do that.
TONY JONES: Can we look at one of the very specific allegations that Mr Chen made over the weekend? He says that a man called Lan Fu, who was once the mayor of Xiamen, was in Australia on a tourist visa in November of 1999, he was forced to return to China after his son, who was studying in this country, was kidnapped by Chinese agents. Now, I take it you deny those allegations?
MADAME FU: I was not here and I don't think - I think it sounds like, from the fiction, but I know this person, Lan Fu, and he was involved in the biggest corruption case in China, the biggest in 50 years. The case involves about 70 billion Chinese yuan and this individual, he himself took 5 million Chinese yuan. Towards the end of the 1990s China's reform was making success and this case shook the whole country. It involved lots of corrupt officials and Lan Fu was one of the criminals in the case. Quite a number of criminals...
TONY JONES: Was he in Australia in 1999 on a tourist visa as is alleged by Mr Chen and was he forced to return to China after the kidnap of his son as alleged by Mr Chen?
MADAME FU: I'm not very familiar with the case, but I don't think the case sounds like true. Kidnapping a foreign citizen by Chinese is really out of the blue. I think the Australian society, Australian police, Australian security, work quite efficiently and I haven't heard any foreign country could kidnap their citizens from Australia.
TONY JONES: Yes, as you say... Go ahead, sorry.
MADAME FU: But many criminals involved in this corruption case were returned to China through cooperation between China and foreign countries and China appreciate the support by the world for China against corruption.
TONY JONES: Ambassador, Mr Chen held quite a high position in your consulate and this is what he's saying: he is saying that Mr Lan Fu's son was drugged and kidnapped in Australia, he was taken to the high seas off Australia in a fishing boat, he was transferred to a cargo ship and taken back to China. Now, you'd agree these are very serious allegations for a senior diplomat to be making?
MADAME FU: Yes, there are many stories he's making. Many of them are not true. And I think it's very good story for fiction.
TONY JONES: These matters, you would think, wouldn't they, would be fairly easy for Australian officials to investigate. For example, one could find out whether his son was studying in a university and whether he then mysteriously disappeared around the end of 1999. Would you be happy for Australian officials to seriously investigate these matters, the allegations being made by Mr Chen?
MADAME FU: Do we expect a foreign ambassador to give instructions to Australian official to do things?
TONY JONES: No, but I'm presuming that you would like them to investigate these matters, to clear them up and prove the case one way or another.
MADAME FU: I'm an Ambassador for China and I'm here to promote our bilateral relations, and I don't give instructions to Australian officials. I think they know what they need to do.
TONY JONES: Alright. Mr Chen says Mr Lan Fu was taken back to China after this coercion that he alleges, he was tried and executed in August of 2000. Do you know if that is true?
MADAME FU: Can you repeat that?
TONY JONES: He says, he alleges that Mr Lan Fu, the father, was tried and executed in China in the year of 2000. Do you know if that is true?
MADAME FU: I've read report of that. In 2000, I was Ambassador in the Philippines.
TONY JONES: Right. So he is saying that he was coerced to leave Australia, he was taken back to China, where he was tried and executed.
MADAME FU: Can you please ask him about where he got all those stories? Lan Fu was certainly sentenced because of his involvement in the embezzlement case, but I don't know the story about his son.
TONY JONES: It is intriguing, isn't it? We certainly will try to get to the bottom of it. Let's move on if we can. Mr Chen says in his position as a diplomat, he had the job of monitoring the activities of what were called five poisonous groups in Australia, the Falun Gong, democracy advocates, separatists from Tibet, Taiwan and East Turkistan. Can you confirm that he did have the duties of monitoring these groups?
MADAME FU: I've read that, and I called the Sydney Consul-General today and asked what was his responsibility and I was told that his job was to deal with Sydney Government officials and New South Wales Government officials. He's a political officer.
TONY JONES: Do you know what he was doing, photographing people in those organisations at functions, because the people from those organisations say they knew of him and his camera.
MADAME FU: That I don't know, but he was not working under me, but if he wants to photograph them, I think it's quite normal. If they came to protest in front of the Sydney Consulate-General, they need to have the scene to notify the Australian police.
TONY JONES: That would be a normal job for a political officer, would it?
MADAME FU: I think if the Australian Embassy or Australian Consulate-General in China is confronted with some kind of demonstration, sometimes even forcing through the doors, what would you do?
TONY JONES: Well, let's move on if we can. He says that China has thousands of agents in Australia. How many agents do you have in fact?
MADAME FU: I read the story from the 'Australian' by Mr Stewart, who said that China has espionage operation of 3,000 people. The focus is the Australian Army. Australian Army has about 50,000 people. That's 1 for almost 20 soldiers. I don't know why we need to do that. And for an operation of 3,000 spies, that costs a lot. Our per capita GDP is only 1,000 and Australia's is 27,000 US dollars. It takes a lot of people of people working to support such a huge spy network. And for Australia, there are only 20,000 people in this country. If we need 3,000 spies for Australia, how many do we need for United States, for other countries? And what China - how much China is going to pay for all these spies? I think all our farmers, our workers would be doing nothing but supporting the spies overseas. I think it's very absurd. China is too busy with itself. We are a poor country. We have 70 [per cent] people living in rural area. We are very busy, very, very busy working to develop our own country. So these kind of stories is really very absurd.
TONY JONES: Ambassador, it is inconceivable, isn't it, though, that a country as powerful and influential as China would not have an independent way of gathering intelligence in a country like Australia. You must have, presumably, some agents?
MADAME FU: I think in the Cold War period, when we are on different side of the front line of Cold War, people treat each other - the countries treat each other as enemies. So at that time, I know some countries have huge espionage operations against the other side. But China doesn't see any threat from Australia. Australia doesn't see China as a threat. We have lots of channels open how to exchange views and information. I don't see why we need espionage on Australia.
TONY JONES: Now, Mr Chen has promised to tell all the secrets he learnt working at your consulate to the Australian Government. Does that make him a spy?
MADAME FU: I don't know what he can spy on and what he can tell. All he has been doing is to promote our relations, and he works in the Consul-General in Sydney. I don't know what kind of top-secret, as he referred to, he is in possession of, what kind of - what kind of espionage activities he's aware of to which the Ambassador and the Consul-General are not aware of. I think...
TONY JONES: In that case, are you in fact quite comfortable with him, as he says, telling everything he knows to the Australian Government that he has learnt while working at your consulate?
MADAME FU: I'm waiting for him to tell us the thousands of Chinese spies in Australia. But on the other hand, I hope he's not going to harm the normal people. I hope he wouldn't...
TONY JONES: Wouldn't someone who promised to give his country's secrets to another country be regarded in China as a traitor?
MADAME FU: "Traitor" is the word used during the war when you disclose the secret of your - the safety - which harm - the secret which would, by disclosing it, will harm the safety of your side. And now, treason is also refer to the people who threaten the safety, security of the country.
TONY JONES: And you don't regard what Mr Chen is doing as treasonous, you don't regard this as traitorous?
MADAME FU: Not so far. I think he's just desperate, as he said. He's so nervous and he tries so hard to impress people. The way I see from television, I think he tried - he tries very hard to impress people. According to his colleagues, maybe he just want to stay in Australia.
TONY JONES: A final quick question, Ambassador: do you seriously believe that if Mr Chen were to return involuntarily in this case to China, that all would be forgiven, that he could go back to a normal life, there would be no repercussions against him at all?
MADAME FU: I don't think there will be any legal punishment. At this stage, from my judgment, what he has done does not deserve any legal punishment. But I think the way he did - the way he tried to harm the country has aroused lots of concern or lots of unhappy feeling among the Chinese people. But it doesn't mean it's serious enough to be regarded as treason.
TONY JONES: Alright, Ambassador Fu, we are out of time. We'll have to leave it there. We thank you very much for coming in to talk to us tonight and give us your side of the story.
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